Alexandra and Paulina tell us about their work to create the world's first commercial Gatsby themes. The themes are aimed at integrating WordPress and Gatsby.
Chris Biscardi: [00:00:00] Hey, I'm Chris Biscardi and this is the party corgi podcast. Today we have Alexandra Spalato and Paulina Hetman. Would you both like to introduce yourself?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:00:10] No. Thank you. so I'm not Accenture I'm um, and French and both in Fritz. But I live in, uh, Shannon of Majorca and, uh, I lived in North where I come from the WordPress world.
Yeah. And then I switched to jazz clips. And I want you to really, to work in Jaspreet, but my clients learning what precedent is. That's what I found the Gatsby was really the, a perfect region man saver to, uh, to Loki Janice fruit. So far, we haven't found that and probably not.
Chris Biscardi: [00:00:54] Pauline would you like to introduce yourself?
Paulina Hetman: [00:00:58] Hi, my name is Paulina, but on the most of the profiles on the internet, you'll find me on there. My nickname, Pell P E um, uh, I work from France is a freelance developer and trainer, but, um, I'm originally Baelish. And, um, well, as we've met with Alexandra, thanks to work because, um, I, my career path is to defer as a team developer.
So I was, uh, developing premium our prestige on sending them off on
Alexandra Spalato: [00:01:36] some
Paulina Hetman: [00:01:36] Suarez. And then, well, uh, the WordPress rest API, uh,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:01:44] it
Paulina Hetman: [00:01:44] appeared and things became much, much more exciting than there were. Yeah. A lot of other
Alexandra Spalato: [00:01:51] waste or?
Yeah.
Chris Biscardi: [00:01:58] So you both have a WordPress background, Pauline. I know you've worked with Vue before. Um, yeah. Is the rest API, what brought you to. A different ecosystem, like the Gatsby ecosystem or was it something else
Paulina Hetman: [00:02:10] at first? My first project that kind of a bound WordPress and JavaScript Oh. Was built with next JS.
We just no framework. It was a website where we tag, uh, Google funds and, uh, um, and then. And another step. Uh, I think it will be closer to Gatsby. I discovered retail, which for those who don't know great. Some it's like a few equivalent to gasping. So word Gatsby, it's reactive somehow. Great. Some of your, and I was so excited after this experience.
I kind of treated this with a lot of enthusiasm and I guess that Alexandra stumbled out and she reached out and that's how things
Alexandra Spalato: [00:03:02] started. That's really how
I began was that Gordon one year. Uh, what question to ask you? So it was my project in gasoline was super exciting and nice, and it was the experiment of themes to create a diamond.
And we began there and
Well, dressy market was such maybe than I was. I want you to do all the season DMS. And I was searching for a partner because we need something is that easy. And, um, and Zach is here supporting us, but cannot be a political stress. So I was really somebody. As I probably know, we know each other from what gaps and barriers, et cetera, and where I'd probably share a few jobs and sushi answer abides tweets about
She's the perfect person. We have a goal and it was also the right moment for her.
And it's really important. Zen life partner.
Chris Biscardi: [00:04:34] That's awesome. Uh, so when you say it's really important to find the right partner, what does that do for you on a, on a project that's been, I guess a few months at this point?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:04:42] Uh, yes, because we get after gets me days longer. So in October,
And, uh, you know, the famous loans are 80%, 20% that applies. So is it 80% was fast
every morning, et cetera. And then you asked a few souls problems, things how to say
it's so funny, it's the funniest stuff and yes, it's important to not be alone to share ideas, you know, your white way and also like person. We are very complimentary. So. You see something
really well,
Paulina Hetman: [00:05:45] what's really important is to have the instant feedback all the time. So we don't go too far with bad ideas. And then would ideas of somehow positively impact. It helps because time on things that finally gave up anyway, you've got the feedback right away.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:06:17] for me, it's my first one. So. Uh, working alone versus working in team. How do you think.
Paulina Hetman: [00:06:28] Well at the beginning, it was quite a, it was quite okay with some forest because, so at the beginning we had a lot of feedback and then feedback process, the review process okay. Was fast. But then when the market became a little too saturated, sometimes even a week away for the first feedback, and then it just started to take too much time and too much of hesitation.
That's even not one problem was that. Marketplace for regular WordPress teams became at some point really saturated. And the other problems was that the markets couldn't respond even to the developers,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:07:09] uh,
Paulina Hetman: [00:07:10] what to say provided because they had no time for the real review. So that was really missing. I am again on this field by saying, I think it's quite important.
Chris Biscardi: [00:07:21] So we've gotten this far without actually describing what the project is. What'd you like to describe what you're working on?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:07:30] So you have, you said to make it, uh, gets to be a WordPress seems premium. So it's a WordPress source. And like design options
and the future more so that's occurred.
Paulina Hetman: [00:08:01] I mean, I'm also means that we'll be able to provide support and yeah. Yes, of course. So that's another, another challenge
Alexandra Spalato: [00:08:10] that we all looking forward.
Chris Biscardi: [00:08:15] Cool. So Gatsby premium WordPress themes, uh, is a lot of words. What is the Gatsby theme? What is the WordPress theme? How does the project sort of either combine them or not, or, yes,
Paulina Hetman: [00:08:32] it's on the same
Alexandra Spalato: [00:08:38] first WordPress themes.
Paulina Hetman: [00:08:41] Uh,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:08:42] Basically, I'm mostly, um, they got that functionality so soon, but
and, uh, but now there is many, many, many meetings, but you cannot.
Paulina Hetman: [00:09:04] Um,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:09:05] seems to be uh, while, uh, it can be, you can have a seems at just encapsulating a configuration, uh, like all the things that can provide also, also gene, and look for zipper. What we are doing now. Uh, it's we have made the parent team that's responsible for the data.
Like it gives me as long as yeah, exactly on that. And it's, it's a parent of, or our oldest use. Uh, and we can also make some things that's using these. And so the CSR composable together, you can have a series that was going to go to a bar on mobile box and yeah. So much more powerful than what these different.
Probably not.
Paulina Hetman: [00:10:06] I mean, at the very beginning, it was kind of confusing for me because I work a lot on with WordPress teams. So I thought maybe there is some kind of analogy. There are some analogies, but the first difference is that you absolutely need a team to run a worker's website. Whereas with B it's just that you kind of abstract some part of building your website into a team.
You can have. Multiple teams,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:10:32] you can combine them.
Paulina Hetman: [00:10:33] But as far, the analogy is what I really liked because I LA I liked very much working with teams in word, and then I feel very quickly comfortable with the concept of shadowing, because it's kind of the same for adults that have, uh, or before we, as WordPress teams, it's just overriding the templates.
So this concept is quite, quite the same. But, yeah, it's not the same thing. And then we had some discussions with Sonic Sandra also, whether that should be within a team or build in other, a separate team
Alexandra Spalato: [00:11:11] or it,
Paulina Hetman: [00:11:12] when do you call it a plug in or where do you call it a team and how should it. To what extent kept it together and went to the site to make a separate parts.
Chris Biscardi: [00:11:42] How do you decide when to put something in a theme versus the plugin?
Paulina Hetman: [00:11:45] Chris did not sure that we deal with that. I'm not sure.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:11:51] It depends if it's something that we'll be using all of the functionality of different, uh, yeah. So there's different.
Chris Biscardi: [00:12:05] Um, you call out a couple of different things there that I think we should dive into a little bit to explain to people who may not be familiar. Uh, one of them is the concept of parent child themes versus in WordPress versus Gatsby. Uh, would you like to explain what that is? And then maybe we can get into shadowing after that?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:12:20] Okay. Um,
Paulina Hetman: [00:12:22] well basically
Alexandra Spalato: [00:12:28] about WordPress Chelsea, how to make it,
Paulina Hetman: [00:12:34] how to make it. Parents that child ready? How to prepare your word for steam to be ready to have children with all the it's a possible way you're responsible. That's why that was the concept, because it can be tricky. So the idea of a child and parent team in WordPress is that you can, uh, override, uh, functionalities.
Without having to interfere with the, we've seen these, the fires from, uh, from that you kind of, uh, obtain from the developer. So the developer is free to update, uh, his pro uh, product. And you can still keep your functionalities because they are separate and they just override some specific parts
Alexandra Spalato: [00:13:31] of, um,
Paulina Hetman: [00:13:33] Foreign product.
And, uh, with Gatsby, it's called shadowing at the very beginning.
Chris Biscardi: [00:13:45] I
Paulina Hetman: [00:13:46] don't know where, where does this
Alexandra Spalato: [00:13:47] come from? Oh, I see. We get speeds. It's different because, uh, you can Google virus and child
long data or just. Uh, getting so that's how for more press and that's no, uh, no CSS, no style, no templates at all. So we, uh, issuing style, just, uh, data seniors. You only see, uh, just some like, like, uh, yes, yes, sir. Yeah. And Zen wrong because it's just solved. Even the parents in some standards of child. So in all our, uh,
or, uh, our, our, uh, and, uh, the channel
project. So, yeah, so firearms and Zen Zo websites and read articles and find my project. And so in a sign out website, we can, um, uh, firearms as a child's that's not important. You can override them, extending them or. So, uh, yes, and we use also, Fumi why, because it's a standard, um, on Gatsby and allows you to find, um, as a science between different teams, et cetera, shadows in theory.
Cool.
Chris Biscardi: [00:15:35] So you said something about a parent data theme. If I'm going to say, create a child theme, if I'm going to use your WordPress data theme to get everything into my site. Uh, how would I go about creating a child theme on that parent data theme? It sounded like you might have Jason displayed somewhere and something like that.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:15:55] Yeah. Simply instead of you selling your data, you have the data and premises data. Oh, you are challenging for us or you feel, uh, your child needs this data or you will be in your side. You don't have to have a seam. And, uh, you're also providing. Uh, let's see my cool stuff with that guy. He's the same long as, uh, uh, Snapchat, but then it's not so as a scene, but as, as project is easiest, is this installation.
Paulina Hetman: [00:16:30] It's like a starter,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:16:31] but all the fights organize all the stars, but so people who are with Lopers and we want to change every scene to be the new project is what I use now for my own projects. Um, so I have one other nice facts with ends and I can, I can invite him without shadow would love to change anything in no sense of, uh, seeing the, just that's changing, changing everything.
Chris Biscardi: [00:16:59] What you use for, uh, sort of all of your new projects. Uh, do you have any examples of what your new projects are that you would use this for
Paulina Hetman: [00:17:07] a new
Alexandra Spalato: [00:17:08] projects for, by my client's websites simply. Uh, now I'm getting my reviews in my own websites. Now I'm finishing a new client project. Uh it's um, it's really nice.
And I, as soon as it's ready, Uh, I, I assume so. So yes, it's, it's been truly speed-ups development. It's not only for people don't want to call it, uh, uh, configurations that are ready. So it's not only Zack, but. I you just things that are related to get the data and get things into us and fives. What are the lines it's super, super heavy,
Chris Biscardi: [00:18:03] right?
Uh, Paulina, you mentioned that, um, you worked with the rest API early on. How does the Gaspe sort of data themes get data into the Gatsby site?
Paulina Hetman: [00:18:14] Oh, right now we were working with a WP graph, QL
Alexandra Spalato: [00:18:18] lagging
Paulina Hetman: [00:18:19] on my, you mean, do you want me to compare how I work with Seth before? Where in the, before against the, or.
Chris Biscardi: [00:18:26] No, uh, I want you to, well, you can talk about whatever you want. This is your opportunity, but, um, yeah. Talk a little bit about like how the themes are implemented in terms of like how they pull data from WordPress. Right? Cause I think some people might not be familiar with, uh, sort of the pattern of having a bunch of data and modifying it and WordPress.
And then also getting it into a Gatsby site. So,
Paulina Hetman: [00:18:47] so right now there is a big conversion that's happening in the Gatsby and to work for us because before there was a, I guess B source WordPress plugin. I can't remember the name right now. The team of the
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:01] official team is switching
Paulina Hetman: [00:19:03] to a new plugin
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:05] images experimental
Paulina Hetman: [00:19:06] and also right now.
So we've just worked. Very heavily during this weekend.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:14] So their new system.
Paulina Hetman: [00:19:16] Which was,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:17] um,
Paulina Hetman: [00:19:18] very exciting. I, and also allowed a lot of, I mean, it becomes much more, uh, you'll have the, the structure of, of the, uh, the graph QL data is a little bit like if, if you have
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:34] worked
Paulina Hetman: [00:19:35] with Mark down or what, usually people are used
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:39] to yeah.
I'm Gatsby. Before . So first I was against the source WordPress. We are here,
Paulina Hetman: [00:19:50] um,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:19:52] and she grabbed us. So
was working with and it was clear to me another time we can call them and them also, what data was there?
Paulina Hetman: [00:20:11] And, uh,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:20:16] and last week Tyler told us, Oh, but. Uh, you, uh, work Gatsby, WordPress rushing for and alpha. It's called experiments, but it's stable. It's more stable actually. In terms of gas source, draft, UL.
Uh,
so, uh, and so yes, we have trust
also.
That's very nice.
get some Summa, so it's much more easy and nicer. Uh, and, uh, and also
uh, and.
Paulina Hetman: [00:21:26] Um,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:21:28] it's really, really better because if you are developing something
as a number of, um, Of, um, of those two debt and so on.
So it's really. Really exciting.
Chris Biscardi: [00:21:56] Well, I'm always excited about faster build times.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:21:58] Yeah.
Chris Biscardi: [00:22:02] Um, that sounds like a lot of work to do in a weekend. Um, what, what was it like to switch from, I guess, WP graph, QL to WP graph, QL or source WordPress experimental.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:22:12] I think it was quite smooth
Paulina Hetman: [00:22:13] because I guess that, um, the starter that Tyler built, uh, there were some basics and we were so much, it's been a few months now that almost every day we work on this project.
So I was just
Alexandra Spalato: [00:22:30] looking into this.
Chris Biscardi: [00:22:39] So it's easy for a couple of people who are now experts,
Paulina Hetman: [00:22:45] uh, transitioning
Alexandra Spalato: [00:22:46] one level, not a lot of websites from, uh, uh,
followers. Uh, you can do that, but yes, we have different strategies. Off work
you know, and search everything. Everything is, it's not complicated, but as you see me, I've done it, uh, in a few days. So,
Chris Biscardi: [00:23:21] so you are both, uh, sort of creating a new market there. I don't know of anybody else that's really selling any themes. Uh, How did you figure that out? Like Y Y Y enter the Gaspe themes market that is not sort of, uh, it doesn't exist yet, right.
You're creating it.
Paulina Hetman: [00:23:40] That's a great point. That's a
Alexandra Spalato: [00:23:43] great opportunity because, um, yeah, so I worked for us a few markets
yes. It's also Virgin land. Um, and so starting at, come from creating seams and I wanted to see my one eye to be in front of.
Uh, and so yes, view is great. And immediately I think there's a market for that then. Oh, that's great. Zen answers a fact about how, because in
Paulina Hetman: [00:24:22] WordPress
Alexandra Spalato: [00:24:24] it's a, it's easy, but here it's MPN modules and there is, uh, no I'm craving Twain. To move to sell them the way to have licenses, uh, uh, et cetera. And, and other people are sending things on, uh, provide this class, which is not super handy, go on dates and things like that.
And take out a lot of the adaptation sort of theme. Uh, and so by Googling and they provide all that. So Jen, uh, upload package to get up and you can have an intro on zap here, some of the things that, uh, collect stride and, um, and
Uh, both. You have to see how this works. So when somebody pays, it's created a
for banking age, um, and we can see the number of downloads. I'm not seeing all the features, but it's really. Really great. Um, and fortunately we found that
think if people want to make pivots go. Hmm.
Chris Biscardi: [00:26:04] Yeah, that sounds awesome. And a lot less work than a, I was sort of thinking about this problem in the past as well. And like the, the obvious solution for everybody is to sell zip files. Right. Which is what you said people are doing right now. But also that removes the utility of being able to install a theme from an MPM package, which is like the entire point of Gatsby themes and shadowing and everything.
Right. So it's awesome that you found the solution, uh, and that you can connect it with sort of like babier and Stripe and everything like that. And, uh,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:26:35] yeah, but it's not the funniest one too. To see how all that works together and, uh,
time to, to see how one. Cool.
Chris Biscardi: [00:26:59] So when this launches, I will be able to go to the. WP a WordPress Gatsby site. Yes,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:27:12] that's cool.
Chris Biscardi: [00:27:13] That's BWP themes. Um, I will be able to go look at the, all of the wonderful child themes. Uh, I've seen a preview of the site. It looks wonderful and they look wonderful. Congratulations. Uh, and that we'll be able to presumably pay from that site to purchase one of the teams. Okay. And then I'll get a token.
I will be able to target basically a second registry to install the themes from that registry and just use, I guess, besides.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:27:40] Yes, we are planning to sell it as a bundle
and you can have all the seams and we also upload the software so people can just download that file and, and type John alter , um, and also providing, um, Uh, WordPress teams,
black page,
Paulina Hetman: [00:28:16] uh,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:28:16] but, uh, it creates environment. Parents work with different, um, A bitch simply because we can spray it
and we can use it to make, you have made a left sidebar bar. You can shoot that and you can really ride to the sidewalk.
Chris Biscardi: [00:28:45] So you've built a very deep integration with, like, you can actually install some WordPress themes, get some templates from the WordPress theme into the Gaspe site, and then configure that through the Gaspe theme so that you can change a couple of things here in a couple of things there.
Yes. That's. Amazing.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:29:01] Thank you. And when you have much more ideas and
Chris Biscardi: [00:29:07] speaking of much more ideas, what, what's the plan for the future?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:29:10] More teams, different things.
Chris Biscardi: [00:29:16] Um, so the future of Gatsby WordPress themes, what, what can we expect?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:29:22] Okay. So first I think. Uh, new markets. That's super nice. I think we first want to all the things that people need, new smaller restaurants. So there is many, many things to do.
Paulina Hetman: [00:29:46] I was folios.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:29:48] Yes.
Um, yeah. Uh, at Zandra seems more functionalities. Can students, commerce, child owners and, and can work in our themes. Um, memberships, more adolescent functionalities that we've come after. I think we don't say that into business. Do some things. And, um, and then I had an idea that I had when we were at your workshop, or if she wants to know,
Paulina Hetman: [00:30:29] I
Alexandra Spalato: [00:30:29] realized that you, you show us how to make your interface.
Paulina Hetman: [00:30:33] Uh, and
Alexandra Spalato: [00:30:35] so we can have different, uh, sources and for example, whereas. Um, and also you from tax and, uh, and so I was sitting, I don't know how to, but I want to dive into that.
then excuse me, that's out and not work for us. That's all. Yeah, because I think he's a future exciting
all the possible sources and
so that's, uh, so it's word of mouth is what they seem to. That's a super exciting vision.
Chris Biscardi: [00:31:27] That would be incredibly cool. I don't think anybody has fully taken advantage of that pattern yet. I think a couple of people have tried and there's a couple of open source teams that do.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:31:37] It's
Paulina Hetman: [00:31:37] just an idea.
Combining multiple WordPress sources could be good, be fun,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:31:48] like
Paulina Hetman: [00:31:49] several blogs and or a, you know, when to just build a
Alexandra Spalato: [00:31:54] hub.
Chris Biscardi: [00:31:55] So basically you could have like the marketing team's WordPress instance and like the developer, like blog, uh, like WordPress instance and like something else. And like you could just have them.
All right. Yeah.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:32:07] So it's a great scene. Uh, when we're abusing a project, that's why. Always wanted to be in Florida because I'm creating then that slide site
managing things for me are constantly this creation process. And it's why are you are in this process? New ideas come in. Sure. Do you mean there something wrong? Your brain is not searching Oh, Oh.
Paulina Hetman: [00:32:43] And now we
Alexandra Spalato: [00:32:43] can do that. Oh yeah. That's what I,
Chris Biscardi: [00:32:51] that is super exciting. Um, So we're going to wrap it up now, would either of you like to say anything else about gas, WP themes or anything else before we end?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:33:02] I think I'm okay.
Uh, you can see the little things that, yes, we are waiting, just waiting for a big diversion of value. Uh, and then we will launch shortly. We've often moms. And so the maximum,
Chris Biscardi: [00:33:27] what month? What day is
Paulina Hetman: [00:33:28] it?
Chris Biscardi: [00:33:32] Sometime in late may, maybe
Alexandra Spalato: [00:33:38] June.
Paulina Hetman: [00:33:43] I mean, the demos are already published, so we would love to have feedback. What do you think feedback, feedback from, from anybody like the most? Yes. Vendor.
Chris Biscardi: [00:34:01] Well, we'll get some links to use them in the description for sure.
Paulina Hetman: [00:34:03] Yes.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:34:06] Tolerant. That's a great scene. I'm going to give you your Steiner. And now it's saying to use our teams to test bragging,
uh, with them work like that. What
Chris Biscardi: [00:34:32] more can you ask for other than to influence the thing that's giving you the data?
Alexandra Spalato: [00:34:36] Yeah, that's a, that's a
Paulina Hetman: [00:34:39] huge opportunity.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:34:43] It's a great thing. You are. Yes, we're experimental. So
at first.
But it's super, super exciting. And so that opportunity to
Chris Biscardi: [00:35:09] where can people find both of you on the internet? Uh, If they want to follow up and learn more about guests BWP themes or anything else that you've talked about?
Paulina Hetman: [00:35:17] Oh,
Alexandra Spalato: [00:35:18] so website gets me tutors,
Paulina Hetman: [00:35:25] B E T H I a on Twitter, P E H and P h.com.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:35:39] I'm finishing to review my website on guessing. Uh,
and uh, I want to produce content. That's a new thing for me. Yes. We want to make, yeah. Uh, workshops, uh, following teams, it would be just workshops and making videos, showing what you can do, you know, explaining how, uh, how to use it, but people don't necessarily know what they can do with that. So I want to show, okay.
I take my team and look what I'm doing and how fast it can be. Uh, and making the workshop to show people how to use it as it's, it's something that I, we need that.
Chris Biscardi: [00:36:29] Yeah, I definitely, uh, I definitely feel that, I think that, um, you're blazing new trails here. And whenever you do that, you sort of have to explain to the people who are not on the trail with you, why you're blazing the trail and what they can do with it.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:36:43] Definitely. W we were, um, no money program to make, uh, uh, dads. We worked for a team workshop. That's it?
Chris Biscardi: [00:36:59] Well, thank you so much for both coming on. I really appreciate it. It was a great episode.
Alexandra Spalato: [00:37:07] Fun.
Chris Biscardi: [00:37:10] That's all we have time for today. Thank you for listening to the party corgi podcast. If you want to come and be part of our community of creators and hackers, you can find a link to our discord channel@partycorgi.com. You can also find us on Twitter at party corgi, pod. I hope you have a wonderful day.